Author Topic: Spanners and sockets  (Read 2558 times)

Offline Oggers

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Re: Spanners and sockets
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2021, 04:33:26 PM »
Quote
thats because they were cheap skates, always on the verge of bankruptcy, I'm not a Velofan, never have been, worked on LE Velos for met police though and they were nearly all 1/4 BSF.

There is a reason for the use of 26tpi cycle and that is because fine threads are less inclined to vibrate loose.

It is rumoured that spanner size is irrelevant to Velo owners as they use the famous hammertite mole grips, one size fits all. ;D ;D ;D

mostly I used a gas axe  on the ones I scrapped.

But if you built the bike right in the first place, then arguably there is no need for BSC threads to keep other poorly designed, shaking contraptions from falling apart?  I tend to believe Veloce designed it pretty much right in the first place, and used the appropriate fasteners.   
« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 04:36:07 PM by Oggers »

Offline 33d6

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Re: Spanners and sockets
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2021, 06:14:45 AM »
I don’t see what the complication is. Three sets of thread gauges, Whitworth, SAE and metric and you can measure nearly every thread you come across. It was a pleasant evening’s job to make my BA screw checking plate, the Whitworth and SAE gauges were my grandfathers and fathers respectively (thread gauges will last several life times) and I actually bought the metric one some thirty odd years ago.
Then you’ll have to start accumulating reference books so you can very nearly identify most threads you come across. Used ones are fine because publishers are reluctant to include obsolete thread details in new books. You can never have too many thread references. You never will know all threads because they keep changing them and no one ever mentions the oddball sizes that Indian and Douglas used for example.
Treat every thread as a mystery and you’ll be fine.
Buy your Whitworth spanners for the Vélo but more importantly buy the workshop manual first. Second purchase after the manual should be the special Vélo clutch pin spanner and a 1/4” jobbers drill from which you make a clutch adjusting tool. Whitworth spanners are only needed  once you have read the manual.
Keep the MSS bog standard and you will have a good touring machine that will take you anywhere.
Rant over.

Offline cardan

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Re: Spanners and sockets
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2021, 09:38:24 AM »
Treat every thread as a mystery and you’ll be fine.

What an eloquently-phrased piece of advice! I love a good thread, and there's nothing more disappointing than to find a 1/4-20 screw in a 1/4-22 tank fitting, or a 1/4-28 cap-head screw in a 1903 bronze crankcase where a 1/4-24 raised-countersunk screw should go. Next time a thread goes tight after the first turn, stop and find out why!

Would you believe that SAE spanners are required for pre-WW1 FN motorcycles made in Belgium? ALL the hexagons are AF, and NOT ONE THREAD on the bike is metric!!

Leon

Leon

Offline Rex

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Re: Spanners and sockets
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2021, 10:12:49 AM »
I would suspect that in reality FN (being a very large industrial manufacturer) made it's own !"£%^% threads and fasteners which just happen to fit the SAE spanner sizes.
As late as the 1970s the postal equipment firm Pitney-Bowes in the UK was using it's own thread forms on it's franking machines.

Offline mini-me

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Re: Spanners and sockets
« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2021, 10:56:22 AM »
BSA loved the occasional odd thread as well.

Quote
I tend to believe Veloce designed it pretty much right in the first place, and used the appropriate fasteners.   

So every other motorcycle manufacturer was wrong in the reason for their choice of fastener, and only Velocette were right?

That fits in with the average attitude of the keen Velocette owner.


Offline Oggers

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Re: Spanners and sockets
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2021, 11:48:11 AM »
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So every other motorcycle manufacturer was wrong in the reason for their choice of fastener, and only Velocette were right?

That fits in with the average attitude of the keen Velocette owner.

Nope - flawed logic there chum. Not what I said and your statement does not follow from it.

Offline iansoady

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Re: Spanners and sockets
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2021, 12:32:29 PM »
I must admit I was less than impressed by many of the design features on a Venom I had for a couple of years. The infamous clutch which was touted as being like that to achieve narrower crankcases was in fact just a hangover from the 2 strokes.  Nice bike to ride although I don't think it was any faster than my current ES2. And the cooking A10 that replaced the Velo in my shed was faster and IMO handled better. It was a bit heavy though.

That saying about Velos needing to be owned by engineers is because they didn't finish designing them at the factory.
Ian
1952 Norton ES2
2008 Yamaha X-Max 250

Offline mini-me

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Re: Spanners and sockets
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2021, 01:39:53 PM »
Quote
So every other motorcycle manufacturer was wrong in the reason for their choice of fastener, and only Velocette were right?

That fits in with the average attitude of the keen Velocette owner.

Nope - flawed logic there chum. Not what I said and your statement does not follow from it.

Off you pop then and buy the bike............ chum.

Offline Rex

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Re: Spanners and sockets
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2021, 05:32:38 PM »
The infamous clutch

I've heard that expression a lot over the years. Why is it "infamous"?   It's unique method of adjustment? It's performance? I'd far rather strip/renew/adjust a Velo clutch than many other designs. All you need is the components in good condition and to follow the manual.

Offline mini-me

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Re: Spanners and sockets
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2021, 06:23:57 PM »
When I worked for a short while at Arthur Wheelers place he showed me the trick of setting one up, I still have the little gadjet he made for me; that was on a 350 MAC,the one with the enclosure on it, I have to say it was one of the sweetest 350s I have ever ridden.

I still wouldn't want one. never been a Velo fan,can't stand yesterdays dinner in my beard.

Offline R

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Re: Spanners and sockets
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2021, 09:36:35 PM »
As late as the 1970s the postal equipment firm Pitney-Bowes in the UK was using it's own thread forms on it's franking machines.

When you think about it, until Mr Whitworth started a trend of standardizing threads, just about EVERY early manufacturer of anything made up their own thread types.
This means that there are about 30 threadforms just for Swiss watches, and folks like Indian and Triumph and Harley Davidson used their own thread types.
And other manufacturers ditto - as FN has just been quoted.

It could be interesting to know when the first threaded fasteners were used ?
Bit of a primer https://www.boltscience.com/pages/screw2.htm
We diverge, muchly.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2021, 09:41:35 PM by R »

Offline iansoady

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Re: Spanners and sockets
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2021, 10:20:16 AM »
The infamous clutch

I've heard that expression a lot over the years. Why is it "infamous"?   It's unique method of adjustment? It's performance? I'd far rather strip/renew/adjust a Velo clutch than many other designs. All you need is the components in good condition and to follow the manual.

It's infamous because as you say it's unique therefore people don't understand it. The method of adjusting "till it just doesn't slip when turning over with the kickstart" is hit and miss to say the least. And if you look at the Velo message group, getting all the components in good condition is far from easy especially as lots of currently available parts are not quite right dimensionally.

Having said that my Venom was OK, I got the clutch working well after lots of fiddling and it was nice to ride. But it never felt like anything special to me though I admit it looked good.
Ian
1952 Norton ES2
2008 Yamaha X-Max 250

Offline Rex

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Re: Spanners and sockets
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2021, 11:20:51 AM »
The curse of pattern parts strikes again.
I recall one quality aspect of my old MAC was the ability to adjust the mesh of the idler gear with the crankshaft and cam gears, and that's after Velocette changed the angle of the gear teeth by something like 1/2' to reduce noise. Small detail improvements.
Sheer quality compared to the much-admired Morini V-twin which everyone gasps over, with it's shit and undersized cam-drive belt that would shame a desk-top printer with it's puny dimensions and requirement for regular replacement.

Offline Lone Wolf

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Re: Spanners and sockets
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2021, 11:10:52 PM »
As late as the 1970s the postal equipment firm Pitney-Bowes in the UK was using it's own thread forms on it's franking machines.

Wotcha.

The franking machines made by Pitney-Bowes were carried around in specially made boxes so that they didn't get damaged.  Any time the postage rate got altered in the budget, the franking machines would have to be altered accordingly.

What's this got to do with motorcycles ?   -   - well, a lot of those boxes ended up being sold for a couple of quid each at radio / computer / electronics fairs etc. . . . and they make wonderful little top boxes for smaller motorcycles, as well as useful tool boxes and such like.  I've still got a few of 'em in regular use.



Offline john.k

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Re: Spanners and sockets
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2021, 05:31:50 AM »
Mention of the dreaded Whitworth spanners rings a bell.....I ve got to do some work on the Gardner engine in my old crane ,and I d forgotten its all BSF threads ...need to be very careful not to lose a nut or bolt ,because unlike old bikes ,bigger BSF thread stuff is impossible to find in Oz.......Unlike a bike ,the old crane has to keep going,as Ive sold the land and included an agreement to clear up all the scrap laying about......I did about half before Christmas ,and Im so sick of the whole thing ,I d like to toss it in...but I cant without costing me heaps.......One slightly less depressing aspect is the price of steel scrap is well up ,and just scrapping an old crane returned some $4000.